[scribus] text-flow gets changed by 1.5.8
Martin Zaske LINGO
martin.zaske at lingo-benin.org
Wed Mar 2 15:29:59 UTC 2022
Dear list,
Thank you for your answers and your interest in this issue of text-flow
changes.
I am glad that there seems to be a consensus here that layout-changes
from one version of Scribus (within say the same series 1.5.x) are not
good for any work-flow. It is hard for us to keep all mixed computers
with different OSs on the exact same version of Scribus.
I now understand that some harfbuzz might be the cause and I accept that
our Scribus devs have their reasons to include certain new harfbuzz
versions every so often.
There is just one information I am missing so far; it might be too
obvious for most of you:
- Where can I even see what harfbuzz version is operational in my
Scribus installation?
(I know where to look up my GhostScript, but not harfbuzz.)
- Does Scribus Windows-version even use harfbuzz? Or Linux only?
And back to our specific problem:
- Are you saying that between Scribus 1.5.7 and 1.5.8 a new harfbuzz
version HAS been introduced?
- Are you saying that new harfbuzz versions (in Scribus) are not too
often? And that sticking with Scribus 1.5.8 and further Scribus versions
for our entire office will not see changes in our text-layout too often?
Things are crazy here at the moment, with year-end-accounting and lots
of visits and visitors. I will gladly co-operate and will try to get
useful samples to Craig and team. Just not today.
I never say this enough so I say it today: We absolutely appreciate
Scribus, and we also like it. Even if one day it would start squinting
and grow green warts with hairs on them, we would not quickly run away
to the princess from the other side.
Greetings,
Martin
On 01.03.2022 23:22, Craig Bradney wrote:
> Hi Andreas and Martin
>
> Scribus doesn't make the all the layout decisions on its own. It uses the harfbuzz text shaping engine. https://harfbuzz.github.io/what-is-harfbuzz.html is a useful quick read.
>
> To answer Martin's questions:
>
>> I would love to get help now on how to proceed, as we are still in the
>> process of a re-design for our magazine. I need something stable, so
>> that I can introduce our team to the new templates and start training.
> Scribus 1.5.x is our development version.. as Jean has said on the bug. Things change. I'd still recommend 1.5.8 by far over 1.5.7. No reason to upgrade until we release 1.6.0.
>
>> - Shall I ignore version 1.5.8 until the cause is identified (and fixed
>> on my system or in Scribus)?
> Its not a problem in either exactly. It’s a change introduced by harfbuzz in their development and may or may not reflect in their changelogs. Maybe it’s a combination of font issues being worked around or other fixes. The fonts are also upgraded over time, as is OpenType as a specification, potentially Unicode too. Any combination of those can improve things (I tend towards improve layout quality, rather than detract from)
>
> The only real way we can control this is to stick to a certain version of harfbuzz for a long time, which may not be realistic given bugs and security fixes, along with Scribus development. With Scribus 1.5.x in development, we are tracking the latest versions of the packages and for 1.6.0 we will need to work out how to maintain versions for longer if possible.
>
> - Any specific known reason for not using version 1.5.7 (on Windows and
> Linux machines) during 2022?
>
> 1.5.8 is certainly better than 1.5.7. It's not that 1.5.8 has a bug, it’s a change in harfbuzz. If your underlying harfbuzz changes, what Scribus presents may also change. You could use the app packages instead of building from scratch on Linux so you use the included libraries.
>
>
> I have not had time to test the file.. but Martin, would it be possible to upload just a single page with the problem? Collect for output, delete all pages but the one with an easy to identify problem, then collect for output again. Then you will still include one page of images. Not sure how easy that is for you but you might fit under the 2mb limit. I will look to increasing that limit. You could also email me directly.
>
>
> Thanks
> Craig
>
> On 01/03/2022, 17:24, "Andreas Mair" <amair.sob at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've a small Scribus file attached, created using v1.5.5 and harfbuzz 2.6.4
> (my LinuxMint VirtualBox).
> It contains a simple text where the text box's width is just wide enough
> for the text (88.100 mm). If I now open this file in Scribus 1.5.7 and
> harfbuzz 3.2.0 (my Gentoo system) it can't render the whole text. I have to
> increase the text box's width to 88.500 mm to have the complete text shown.
>
> What makes me think now is why an external library can have that effect on
> Scribus layouts. Maybe someone can explain that to me?
>
> Best regards,
> Andreas
>
> Am Di., 1. März 2022 um 13:22 Uhr schrieb Andreas Mair <amair.sob at gmail.com
> >:
>
> > Hi Craig,
> >
> > I downgraded Scribus from 1.5.8 back to 1.5.7 and the problem is still
> > there. So it must be a system library. And yes, harfbuzz also had been
> > updated from 3.1.2 to 3.2.0 when I updated Scribus to 1.5.8.
> > So I guess it must be a harfbuzz issue. It's not that easy to downgrade
> > harfbuzz here so I simply tried my LinuxMint VirtualBox where they have an
> > older harfbuzz. The problematic renders correct.
> >
> > Problem: Scribus 1.5.7 and 1.5.8 with harfbuzz 3.2.0
> > NO problem: Scribus 1.5.5 with harfbuzz 2.6.4
> >
> > No other combination tested yet. What versions that work/don't work do you
> > have installed?
> >
> > In my case I think it has to do with justified text, word tracking (min
> > 90/norm 100) and glyph extension (min 92/max 103). Liberation Serif font.
> >
> > I'll investigate further ...
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Andreas
> >
> >
> > Am Fr., 18. Feb. 2022 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb Craig Bradney <
> > cbradney at scribus.info>:
> >
> >> This can be affected by the libraries included in the OS or the build,
> >> especially harfbuzz etc. It'd be great to get whatever sample files we can
> >> to review.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> Craig
> >>
> >> On 18/02/2022, 12:25, "Andreas Mair" <amair.sob at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello!
> >>
> >> I think that's what happened here, too. I've started working on a
> >> "new"
> >> document and noticed that some texts don't fit into the defined text
> >> boxes.
> >> By "new" I mean that I'll always start with the latest issue of that
> >> magazine and change the texts etc.
> >>
> >> For the latest issue I used 1.5.7, now I'm using 1.5.8. After reading
> >> your
> >> posting I will try to go back to 1.5.7 and see if everything is fine
> >> again,
> >> just to exclude used libs (used font didn't change).
> >> If it's simply a matter of running 1.5.7 or 1.5.8 I'll try to narrow
> >> the
> >> problem down.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Andreas
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Am Do., 17. Feb. 2022 um 18:38 Uhr schrieb Martin Zaske LINGO <
> >> martin.zaske at lingo-benin.org>:
> >>
> >> > Hi list
> >> >
> >> > I was getting help recently, while "hacking" a quick calendar with
> >> > tab-stops. I opened it a few days later, once more, and made a
> >> second
> >> > version. My document was made with version 1.5.7.
> >> >
> >> > This was after I had just installed version 1.5.8 (on Windows 10
> >> pro,
> >> > 64bit). The layout had changed some, text inside a text-frame had
> >> > shifted. Since I had done some hacking (as explained in my last
> >> thread)
> >> > I blamed myself and quickly re-edited to make things align again.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Today it happened again, but in a "good document", i.e. everything
> >> > vanilla, no hacking: We are redesigning our magazine, moving from A3
> >> > page size to A4 and making spin-off versions for smart-phone screen
> >> > proportions.
> >> >
> >> > I had started a sample template a few weeks ago. Now I have
> >> installed
> >> > version 1.5.8 and again, I notice that text in my sample article has
> >> > been shifted.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I am using nothing fancy, two text-frames (as two columns) next to
> >> each
> >> > other on each page, with links between the frames. There are photos
> >> on
> >> > another layer above the texts and I am using the "text flows around
> >> > contour line" option. I still have both versions on my machine and I
> >> > made two identical copies and open them at the same time: Look
> >> > different. Not a font issue, not a Windows issue as far as I can
> >> tell.
> >> >
> >> > After more searching and opening the two identical copies of my file
> >> > with swapped Scribus versions I have confirmed the problem. Now
> >> after
> >> > some searching I can say, it is caused by different
> >> "interpretation" of
> >> > my main text style by the versions.
> >> >
> >> > I am using justified text with Fira Sans, Align to Baseline Grid,
> >> > Optical Margins both sides, Advanced Settings: Min Space 80%, Glyph
> >> > extension Min 95%, Max 105% (do not yell at me, early days) and
> >> nothing
> >> > fancy in the Character Style tab of my style definition. The text
> >> is in
> >> > an African language and (automatic) hyphenation is not activated.
> >> >
> >> > So when I open my document in different versions, somehow my text
> >> via
> >> > style (alignment) gets rendered a little different than before.
> >> This is
> >> > affecting only certain lines, maybe one line every ten lines and I
> >> > cannot say it is "more dense" in 1.5.8, some paratexts get a little
> >> > longer. But the changes are still too much to allow a good
> >> work-flow.
> >> > And in our office we use Windows and Linux machines and all
> >> versions are
> >> > 1.5.x but at different stages always.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Now before I spend a lot of time with research: Have other users
> >> noticed
> >> > that same behaviour?: Text-layout or text-flow changes between
> >> versions
> >> > 1.5.7 and 1.5.8 in Windows?
> >> >
> >> > Is this "allowed" behaviour in the 1.5 series? I am aware this is
> >> free
> >> > software and my mail is not a complaint. I was just under the
> >> > impressions (false?) that within one series like 1.5.x files or
> >> Scribus
> >> > would remain compatible.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > With any normal small project, I would just quickly fix it and be
> >> done.
> >> > But since we are preparing an entire re-design, I am now nervous
> >> about
> >> > this as you can imagine.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Normally I cannot easily share documents because of data protection
> >> and
> >> > copyrights etc. But since I have only done the very first
> >> draft-steps
> >> > and I only have used free photos from Pixabay, I could upload
> >> somewhere
> >> > if anybody would be interested to test.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Thank you for your help and greetings,
> >> >
> >> > Martin
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > courriel par Martin Zaske, membre de :
> >> >
> >> > LINGO-Bénin
> >> > B.P. 48
> >> > Bassila
> >> > Rep. du Bénin
> >> >
> >> > Tel. 00229 / 97.44.62.95
> >> > Tel. 00229 / 62.58.04.48
> >> >
> >> > Organisation Non Gouvernementale
> >> > Decret No. 2001-234 du 12 juillet 2001
> >> > No. d'enregistrement 6/033/P-SG STCCD-DCDI-ONG
> >> > du 05 septembre 2012
> >> >
> >> > Numéro IFU: 6201702245702
> >> >
> >> > www.lingo-benin.org
> >> >
> >> >
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--
courriel par Martin Zaske, membre de :
LINGO-Bénin
B.P. 48
Bassila
Rep. du Bénin
Tel. 00229 / 97.44.62.95
Tel. 00229 / 62.58.04.48
Organisation Non Gouvernementale
Decret No. 2001-234 du 12 juillet 2001
No. d'enregistrement 6/033/P-SG STCCD-DCDI-ONG
du 05 septembre 2012
Numéro IFU: 6201702245702
www.lingo-benin.org
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